School Me on Tobacco Maturation and Fermentation

[Lumbridge]

I've got a pound of Newminster Navy Flake on the way and I'm planning to seal it in mylar. I've been getting into VAs in general, but I've found that I'm not a fan of the "vinegar-y" taste of fermented tobaccos. I want to cellar some bulk VA, VaOr, and perique blends without encouraging undesired (for me) flavors to develop. I'm cellaring primarily for future availability rather than for aging.

My understanding is that the toppings on flakes like Newminster 400, however light, will largely prevent fermentation, while not altogether inhibiting the blend from mellowing over time. With non-aromatics, though, that would not be the case. I also want to cellar Haunted Bookshop, and I have read anecdotal reports of the blend becoming overwhelmingly peppery after a few years due to the perique.

I'm pondering whether I should vacuum-seal my blends or not, so I guess this is a question about aerobic versus anaerobic fermentation. I've decided against jars for anything I'm not currently smoking through; I move around often and jars just get too heavy and bulky. Long story short, if I want to avoid this vinegar-like flavor in VAs and my perique blends becoming dominated by peppery flavor, what's the best course of action for long-term storage?

 

[Peter Turbo]

Mason Jars or Mylar, I use both for long term. I’d vacuum seal tins but haven't really had the need to do that, I wouldnt do that to loose tobacco though.

 

[bullet08]

Mylar. Since mason jar isn't an option, what else is there? Newminster does get better, and the topping gets lighter. Haven't noticed vinegar smell. it's only been two years or so.

 

[Lumbridge]

Yeah, mylar looks like the route to take. I'm just not sure about whether it would be best to leave air in the bag or not, especially if I'm dealing with a straight VA with no aromatic topping whatsoever. I'd like to get the mellowing that comes with some age, but without the intense fermentation funkyness.

 

[Lumbridge]

Essentially - how will the presence of oxygen or the lack thereof affect the flavor?

 

[Peter Turbo]

Essentially - how will the presence of oxygen or the lack thereof affect the flavor?

I asked Ken Byron about this since I was curious about the mylar he was shipping his blends with. He said let most of the air out and heat seal it, thats it. I don’t think much, if any flavor loss occurs. People keep the 8oz Esoterica blends in the bags which I’m pretty sure are mylar and those do just fine.

 

[mwsmoker]

My cellar stays between 40% and 50% RH year round. I jar loose ribbon cut. Anything tinned or bulk flake (like the MB or PS 1lb boxes) just go on the shelf as-is. I prefer to smoke things pretty dry, anyway.

Everything I’m smoking now is 5-9 years old. It’s all fine.

 

[Lumbridge]

I asked Ken Byron about this since I was curious about the mylar he was shipping his blends with. He said let most of the air out and heat seal it, thats it. I don’t think much, if any flavor loss occurs. People keep the 8oz Esoterica blends in the bags which I’m pretty sure are mylar and those do just fine.

No doubt they seal very well. I can't smell anything coming from the mylar bags I've packaged so far - that's been the easiest way to store all of my bulk. I can always catch a whiff from tins and jars, though.

 

[Lumbridge]

Maybe I'm confused. I've been doing some reading, and I'm starting to think that the sour vinegar flavor I was noticing in some blends is actually just attributable to particular types of VA like red VA. I had assumed that it had something to do with the fermentation, as perique is just fermented burley that gets tart and tangy from the process.

 

[anotherbob]

just had a thought. A mini light bulb moment. I guess a LED moment. I pick wild lettuce every year. One time it ended up smelling like vinegar. Looked up why and it's basically a byproduct of bacteria. Maybe the vinegar from certain tobaccos is caused by a similar thing. Maybe? Or maybe not at all?

 

[Lumbridge]

just had a thought. A mini light bulb moment. I guess a LED moment. I pick wild lettuce every year. One time it ended up smelling like vinegar. Looked up why and it's basically a byproduct of bacteria. Maybe the vinegar from certain tobaccos is caused by a similar thing. Maybe? Or maybe not at all?

I was under the impression it was due to acidity. I've been trying to figure out why some of the Virginias I've smoked taste vinegary and some don't, and had assumed it was acid as a byproduct of fermentation, like how some fermented foods are sour.

 

[anotherbob]

I was under the impression it was due to acidity. I've been trying to figure out why some of the Virginias I've smoked taste vinegary and some don't, and had assumed it was acid as a byproduct of fermentation, like how some fermented foods are sour.

it all goes together.

 

[Lumbridge]

Bumping this up because I'm hoping that someone might be able to explain the sour/vinegar flavor thing. Just something to do with certain types of tobacco, or related to aging and fermentation?

 

[makhorkasmoker]

I have heard that perique loses some of its Peppery qualities with aging and takes on more of the plum and bread notes it is known for.

 

[Lumbridge]

I have heard that perique loses some of its Peppery qualities with aging and takes on more of the plum and bread notes it is known for.

I would hope so - the pepper isn't to my taste, except when it's subtle.

 

[AppalachianPipe92]

Russ Hicks mentioned it and Brian Levine reaffirmed it - topped VA blends can go sour after a certain point. Brian said 3-5 years, russ discovered it at the 5 year mark I believe.
These were flakes like Astleys 109 and 44, Vauen No. 14, etc. Those topped Virginia flakes that are a little more topped than say Luxury Navy or something. Russ especially mentioned it with the Astleys flakes, but those could've been the older rendition of these blends when they had a heavier/different topping. I currently smoke 2017/18 Astleys without any issues. Though I have come to prioritize smoking these blends in my cellar faster than untopped/lightly topped blends that won't potentially sour. Orlik or PS Navy would be examples of a lightly topped flake that I think will age well, past the 5 year mark, without any negative impacts to the topping.
And I agree with the above statement, unfortunately - Perique will lose its character after time. I love a potent perique mixture. Ideal for me is 2-3 years on a VaPer, the VAs have mellowed out and the Perique hasn't lost anything. I'm not sure how long before the Perique starts becoming too mellow for my liking. I smoke 2017/18 Acadian Perique everyday and still get the taste I desire.
This makes me nervous because most of my cellar is VaPer. I'm just hoping the 5-10yr mark isn't too much.

YMMV

 

[Lumbridge]

Russ Hicks mentioned it and Brian Levine reaffirmed it - topped VA blends can go sour after a certain point. Brian said 3-5 years, russ discovered it at the 5 year mark I believe.
These were flakes like Astleys 109 and 44, Vauen No. 14, etc. Those topped Virginia flakes that are a little more topped than say Luxury Navy or something. Russ especially mentioned it with the Astleys flakes, but those could've been the older rendition of these blends when they had a heavier/different topping. I currently smoke 2017/18 Astleys without any issues. Though I have come to prioritize smoking these blends in my cellar faster than untopped/lightly topped blends that won't potentially sour. Orlik or PS Navy would be examples of a lightly topped flake that I think will age well, past the 5 year mark, without any negative impacts to the topping.
And I agree with the above statement, unfortunately - Perique will lose its character after time. I love a potent perique mixture. Ideal for me is 2-3 years on a VaPer, the VAs have mellowed out and the Perique hasn't lost anything. I'm not sure how long before the Perique starts becoming too mellow for my liking. I smoke 2017/18 Acadian Perique everyday and still get the taste I desire.
This makes me nervous because most of my cellar is VaPer. I'm just hoping the 5-10yr mark isn't too much.

YMMV

Hadn't thought about the possibility of it being the topping causing that, but that's interesting to think about. No. 400 is pretty lightly topped and I have been told it ages fairly. Sounds like I might need to prioritize working through some of the older VA aromatics in my cellar, some of which are getting close to that 5 year mark.

I wouldn't mind the perique mellowing out in some of my blends. I was a bit wary of the same thing happening to my latakias, but I don't think it'll be much of an issue.

 

[hawky454]

Keep in mind that some manufactures add vinegar as a preservative too. I hear some of the Sutliff CC’s are pretty much soaked in vinegar to attempt a McClelland like taste but McClelland (I believe) didn’t add vinegar, their tang was a result of their unique fermentation style. I personally love the tang, it’s all about that tang! I love the addition of the Vinegar added to St. Bruno, it’s ever so slight and not meant to flavor the tobacco, it’s meant as an anti-molding agent but I can definitely taste it.

I remember @simong using a certain vinegar to top some of his flakes. I forget what kind he used, it wasn’t white vinegar though.

 

[Lumbridge]

Keep in mind that some manufactures add vinegar as a preservative too. I hear some of the Sutliff CC’s are pretty much soaked in vinegar to attempt a McClelland like taste but McClelland (I believe) didn’t add vinegar, their tang was a result of their unique fermentation style. I personally love the tang, it’s all about that tang! I love the addition of the Vinegar added to St. Bruno, it’s ever so slight and not meant to flavor the tobacco, it’s meant as an anti-molding agent but I can definitely taste it.

I remember @simong using a certain vinegar to top some of his flakes. I forget what kind he used, it wasn’t white vinegar though.

I remember getting that tartness from Match Elizabethan, though it's been a few years. It was one of the first non-aros I tried, so maybe my distaste for it had something to do with the fact that my palate was used to Captain Black. It steered me away from VaPers for a while, but that's changing now.

 

[hawky454]

I remember getting that tartness from Match Elizabethan, though it's been a few years. It was one of the first non-aros I tried, so maybe my distaste for it had something to do with the fact that my palate was used to Captain Black. It steered me away from VaPers for a while, but that's changing now.

That one is heavy with Perique funk! I could see how it would turn some people off, especially if you are coming from Captain Black. I love that funk, smells like dirty socks but tastes so good. I’ve made many tobacco pucks from that blend. I do have a feeling that there is Vinegar added to that one too.