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Briar Lee

Lifer
Sep 4, 2021
4,840
13,964
Humansville Missouri
Boeing makes airplanes.

They’re having some bad days.

Boeing does not make plugs to plug in unused exit doors, but one blew out a couple of weeks ago and scared the bejeezus out of all the passengers on the Boeing and all the Boeings with exit door plugs were grounded, a bad situation and costly.

Boeing does not make jet engines.


Oh my God, it’s on fire!

(The Boeing 747 was not on fire, one engine was.)

Everybody records everything these days.

And we think we catch it when stuff happens to us we didn’t cause.:)
 

gubbyduffer

Can't Leave
May 25, 2021
463
1,537
Peebles, Scottish Borders
Boeing makes airplanes.

They’re having some bad days.

Boeing does not make plugs to plug in unused exit doors, but one blew out a couple of weeks ago and scared the bejeezus out of all the passengers on the Boeing and all the Boeings with exit door plugs were grounded, a bad situation and costly.

Boeing does not make jet engines.


Oh my God, it’s on fire!

(The Boeing 747 was not on fire, one engine was.)

Everybody records everything these days.

And we think we catch it when stuff happens to us we didn’t cause.:)
As far as I am aware investigations into the causes of both incidents are ongoing. I wasn't aware of the engine fire but it only happened on Thursday.
Any comment on the cause is pure speculation at this stage, however if we are speculating, I don't think the fact that Boeing didn't manufacture the engine or door plug necessarily get them off the hook for liability. Here is a link to an article about the door plug
Boeing door plug blowout highlights a possible crisis of competence − an aircraft safety expert explains - https://theconversation.com/boeing-door-plug-blowout-highlights-a-possible-crisis-of-competence-an-aircraft-safety-expert-explains-221069

Pressure tests upon assembled planes are undertaken at Boeings plant. The text below is lifted from the article.

'Normally, the plugs are not removed during those tests at the Boeing facility, though they are checked to ensure they are correctly aligned with the rest of the fuselage. Overall, it is Boeing’s responsibility, as the original equipment manufacturer, to ensure the components conform to the FAA’s design, manufacturing, installation and performance requirements.'

With regards to the engine fire, for all we know a part could have broken free from another part of the plane and gone through the engine.

If you are on a plane with a flaming engine you certainly have every right to consider the plane as being on fire!

It may end up being subcontractors rather than Boeing that are liable for these incidents, however until investigations are completed we just don't know.
 

Briar Lee

Lifer
Sep 4, 2021
4,840
13,964
Humansville Missouri
As far as I am aware investigations into the causes of both incidents are ongoing. I wasn't aware of the engine fire but it only happened on Thursday.
Any comment on the cause is pure speculation at this stage, however if we are speculating, I don't think the fact that Boeing didn't manufacture the engine or door plug necessarily get them off the hook for liability. Here is a link to an article about the door plug
Boeing door plug blowout highlights a possible crisis of competence − an aircraft safety expert explains - https://theconversation.com/boeing-door-plug-blowout-highlights-a-possible-crisis-of-competence-an-aircraft-safety-expert-explains-221069

Pressure tests upon assembled planes are undertaken at Boeings plant. The text below is lifted from the article.

'Normally, the plugs are not removed during those tests at the Boeing facility, though they are checked to ensure they are correctly aligned with the rest of the fuselage. Overall, it is Boeing’s responsibility, as the original equipment manufacturer, to ensure the components conform to the FAA’s design, manufacturing, installation and performance requirements.'

With regards to the engine fire, for all we know a part could have broken free from another part of the plane and gone through the engine.

If you are on a plane with a flaming engine you certainly have every right to consider the plane as being on fire!

It may end up being subcontractors rather than Boeing that are liable for these incidents, however until investigations are completed we just don't know.


Wanna talk about first world tech?

Build a commercial jetliner that hauls hundreds of people six miles high at 550 mph and lasts thirty or forty years.

No fair killing a single passenger, not even one.

This is one of the most fascinating books ever written.

 

FurCoat

Lifer
Sep 21, 2020
9,276
84,514
North Carolina
So Boeing isn't at fault because they outsourced some of the manufacturing? I don't buy that argument. They are still responsible for the quality and installation of the parts they are selling with their name on it. Spirit manufactures the fuselage with plug installed, Boeing takes possession, plug is removed to install mechanics and interior and then Boeing reinstalls the plug. So people make mistakes and the plane tried to tell them. Multiple pressure warnings and the solution was to reset the alarm. Maintenance didn't even try to find out why it wasn't holding pressure, just reset the alarm and all is hunky dorry. So if the door falls off your car it is the fault of the company that made the door? No, it's the car companies fault that didn't bolt the door to the frame during assembly and better yet didn't check to make sure the job was done correctly. This is not a bad day for Boeing or an isolated incident. They are having a bad decade especially where quality control is concerned.
 

HawkeyeLinus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2020
5,612
41,222
Iowa
Not sure not making engines is relevant - 98% of the engines for aircraft manufacturers are made by a very few engine makers and don't know of any offhand that make their own, I'm sure it's possible. Just like Boeing doesn't make the loo fixtures, the seat cushions and tons of stuff that's in an airplane. Having said, that, it designs the aircraft and certainly has responsibility for putting a safe aircraft in service when manufactured. But it also can't be to blame if something out sourced that should integrate fine with the aircraft fails in every instance.

With the millions upon millions of miles flown it's amazing overall how safe it is to fly (it is not my favorite thing) - though like parachuting, the consequences of one issue can be very problematic.
 
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FurCoat

Lifer
Sep 21, 2020
9,276
84,514
North Carolina
Not sure not making engines is relevant - 98% of the engines for aircraft manufacturers are made by a very few engine makers and don't know of any offhand that make their own, I'm sure it's possible. Just like Boeing doesn't make the loo fixtures, the seat cushions and tons of stuff that's in an airplane. Having said, that, it designs the aircraft and certainly has responsibility for putting a safe aircraft in service when manufactured. But it also can't be to blame if something out sourced that should integrate fine with the aircraft fails in every instance.

With the millions upon millions of miles flown it's amazing overall how safe it is to fly (it is not my favorite thing) - though like parachuting, the consequences of one issue can be very problematic.
From my understanding the engines are rented from the manufacturer.
 

Briar Lee

Lifer
Sep 4, 2021
4,840
13,964
Humansville Missouri
The famous coach Knute Rockne got himself splatted all over a Kansas cornfield in 1931.


Talk about your bad day for the Fokker aircraft company.:)

You can talk all day how safe air travel is and how more babies get killed per mile in baby carriages but if your big airliner, for whatever reason or cause, carrying Americans, goes down the press will report that like they do the death of a pope, for days and days.

You hear old men in the barbershop bad mouthing America and blaming America first and saying how we’ve all gone to hell since those Beatles came here in 1964 and brought that long hair with them.

And I still think some kind of communist conspiracy was afoot to discontinue the Model 12 Winchester in 1964.:)

But the Boeing 737 is a 1964 design still being produced today in Seattle Washington.


There hasn’t been one fatal crash of a commercial airliner in the USA for fifteen years.

The FAA controls an astounding 45,000 commercial flights in the USA a day, all in English, with almost 3 million fare paying passengers each day.

Just don’t let an engine catch on fire or a hatch door blow out. That’s bad.

It has to be a perfect record.

The planes can’t wear out, the pilots can’t make mistakes, nothing can go wrong.

The press is waiting to report it.
 
Aug 1, 2012
4,628
5,192
So Boeing isn't at fault because they outsourced some of the manufacturing? I don't buy that argument. They are still responsible for the quality and installation of the parts they are selling with their name on it. Spirit manufactures the fuselage with plug installed, Boeing takes possession, plug is removed to install mechanics and interior and then Boeing reinstalls the plug. So people make mistakes and the plane tried to tell them. Multiple pressure warnings and the solution was to reset the alarm. Maintenance didn't even try to find out why it wasn't holding pressure, just reset the alarm and all is hunky dorry. So if the door falls off your car it is the fault of the company that made the door? No, it's the car companies fault that didn't bolt the door to the frame during assembly and better yet didn't check to make sure the job was done correctly. This is not a bad day for Boeing or an isolated incident. They are having a bad decade especially where quality control is concerned.
I see where you are coming from. However, I don't think it's an equivalent argument that the company that made the plane is at fault given your other statements. Let's go back to the car example. If you keep getting a tire pressure warning light, you keep ignoring it. You decide to just take short trips instead and your tire blows causing an accident, who's fault is it? Per your argument it would be the car company. In my opinion it would be the fault of the operator of the vehicle for ignoring the warnings and not the car manufacturer. Sure, someone else made the tire and the sensor but the operator chose to ignore it and just take shorter trips.



The blame game is not productive however, and just serves to shift the focus from improvement to who can make the most money.
 

brian64

Lifer
Jan 31, 2011
9,722
15,081
My God, I hate flying in those demonic rockets, complete with kitchen and bathroom. Until a red-haired, blue-eyed stewardess arrives, and says to me, boy, I'm here, stop reading the bible, and crying to your mommy.
Don't you know it's verboten to call them stewardesses now? You might get yourself tossed out the blown off exit door for doing that.
 
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anantaandroscoggin

Part of the Furniture Now
Sep 9, 2017
660
1,042
70
Greene, Maine, USA
I haven't been on an airplane since Sept 3, 2011, and it's as much the press the airlines' personnel get for their extremely shoddy way they treat their passengers as anything else.

But I have always liked this way of putting it: "Some nights it just doesn't pay to claw your way up from your coffin."
 

FurCoat

Lifer
Sep 21, 2020
9,276
84,514
North Carolina
I see where you are coming from. However, I don't think it's an equivalent argument that the company that made the plane is at fault given your other statements. Let's go back to the car example. If you keep getting a tire pressure warning light, you keep ignoring it. You decide to just take short trips instead and your tire blows causing an accident, who's fault is it? Per your argument it would be the car company. In my opinion it would be the fault of the operator of the vehicle for ignoring the warnings and not the car manufacturer. Sure, someone else made the tire and the sensor but the operator chose to ignore it and just take shorter trips.



The blame game is not productive however, and just serves to shift the focus from improvement to who can make the most money.
I agree, plenty of fault to go around. The airline has negligence in their response as well. That was the part where I said people make mistakes and there were warning signs prior to failure. The aircraft should have been grounded until the root cause was isolated instead of just not being allowed to fly over water. A lot of balls were dropped and someone needs to pick them up and make sure they don't get dropped again.
 

gubbyduffer

Can't Leave
May 25, 2021
463
1,537
Peebles, Scottish Borders
I agree, plenty of fault to go around. The airline has negligence in their response as well. That was the part where I said people make mistakes and there were warning signs prior to failure. The aircraft should have been grounded until the root cause was isolated instead of just not being allowed to fly over water. A lot of balls were dropped and someone needs to pick them up and make sure they don't get dropped again.
If a fault is know about should the manufacturer inform customers, or do they act unilaterally? Who pays the cost if an airline grounds all of its planes prior to any accident based on the possibility of an incident? If a fault is known about, should it be the manufacturer that provides advice on the best course of action?

I hoped to engage in a debate about the possibilites of liabilities in an interesting field, however this thread was not started to ascertain or debate the true cause of an air incident, but rather to whinge about how people could have the temerity to question the quality of 'murican' engineering. Perhaps America doesn't make the safest planes.

OP, to try to draw a comparison between today's aviation industry, regulatory standards, engineering testing and media reporting, to those following a crash almost a century ago, is like comparing apples to giraffes. They are worlds apart.

For a start, as well as perhaps less sensationalist reporting in 1931, there were less old male pipe smokers keen to tell us about Fokkers poor safety record on an Internet forum. It's hypocritical to post your feelings here after complaining about the publics use of modern technology to film and report such events.
Here's the plane involved in the 1931 crash you mentioned, along with a typical camera of the era

1000014860.jpg
1000014861.jpg

OP......'The press is waiting to report it.'

As are you, it seems.

You may consider Boeing to be hard done by here, however the aviation industry is held to high standards, and rightfully so. To quote the low number of aviation deaths in US, is to ignore safety records globally. Boeing don't fare overly well in that regard, although I am acutely aware, living 1/2 an hours drive from Lockerbie that not accidents are Boeings fault.

PS. Being a contributer to a few, mainly uk based forums, I have to say sometimes this place has me shaking my head in utter disbelief. As a Scot I find it an interesting take on a slice of American viewpoints on society. I perhaps naively felt this thread was about an interest in aviation safety. I have never been so dumbfounded at how an ignorant description of communism, or an uneducated viewpoint on modern 'wokery' can be segued into any topic, as has been shown previously in this thread.
 
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